Curse

Productivity · May 26, 2007, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Or does Izzy somehow think hexes are balanced as it currently stands?

moko · May 26, 2007, 01:35 PM // 13:35

there aren't any hexes in HvH (besides Assassin ones), so Izzy probably thinks they suck -- maybe he's gonna buff them for Hvh!

no, i honestly don't see a nerf coming before GW:EN. (if anything :()

around · May 26, 2007, 02:22 PM // 14:22

I'm betting all hexes are gonna be nerfed before GWEN, then a whole new bunch of imbalanced ones are gonna come in.

Riotgear · May 26, 2007, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Non-elite hex removal needs a buff more than hexes need a nerf, IMO.

assassin of the god · May 27, 2007, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Non-elite hex removal needs a buff more than hexes need a nerf, IMO.

Buffing direct counters to imbalanced things instead of actully balancing them just leads to build wars, "take this imbalanced counter to this broken thing or you're gunna lose against a portion of teams, regardless of skill level". R/P/S is not a fun game.

Riotgear · May 27, 2007, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by assassin of the god

Buffing direct counters to imbalanced things instead of actully balancing them just leads to build wars, "take this imbalanced counter to this broken thing or you're gunna lose against a portion of teams, regardless of skill level". R/P/S is not a fun game.

Perhaps it's "build wars" when you weren't going to bring the skills anyway. I'm pretty sure every team with a clue brings basic hex control. It's not really any more "build wars" then bringing Draw and MT is "build wars" for dealing with conditions.

Similarly, the money hexes have been unchanged practically forever, and the balancing of them tends to make sense in relation to one another. And of course, the options for removing any hex with a cover have always sucked horribly.

Dzan · May 27, 2007, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by assassin of the god

Buffing direct counters to imbalanced things instead of actully balancing them just leads to build wars, "take this imbalanced counter to this broken thing or you're gunna lose against a portion of teams, regardless of skill level". R/P/S is not a fun game.

Eons ago I asked Ensign, "how can our balanced build beat a blood or air spike team (when those were good in GVG)" and his response was, "the skills in a balanced build that are good vs a spike team are also good vs other balanced builds." That's when I stopped thinking of the metagame as r/p/s.

Productivity · May 27, 2007, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

Eons ago I asked Ensign, "how can our balanced build beat a blood or air spike team (when those were good in GVG)" and his response was, "the skills in a balanced build that are good vs a spike team are also good vs other balanced builds." That's when I stopped thinking of the metagame as r/p/s.

Except that they aren't in this case. Lets say I run a Divert Hexes monk in order to win against hex teams. Next time I don't get a hex team facing me, I get a balanced team. I'm left blatting off diversions with divert hexes when I would have been better off taking veil (preveiling, less energy). The elite hex removal only really gets useful when you're facing teams with two characters designed to pump out hexes, everything else is just spot hexes that a few veils/deny hexes can handle. I'd buy it when you talk about cry of frustration, distracting shot etc. but those just don't cut it when facing hexes.

Riotgear · May 27, 2007, 06:06 AM // 06:06

That's why I said NON-elite hex removal needs some sort of improvement.

Mylon · May 27, 2007, 06:15 AM // 06:15

The problem currently is that not enough skills lack versatility. Shock is a great skill that is practically impossible to stop, can be used to interrupt, snare, and/or a brief total shutdown. All it requires is 5e and to touch the opponent. This is why it finds its way on so many warrior's builds.

Meanwhile you have, say, reckless haste, which works great if your opponent relies on physical attacks. Until you find out that the assassin you cast it on is a deadly paradox/signet of toxic shock spell assassin and your spell is wasted. Or you have Deny Hexes elite, which you find out is also useless because your enemy consists of a warrior, a dervish, and a typical nuke ele.

In Magic: the Gathering, the game has changed to get around that 7 cards in hand limit by giving more creatures abilities, making some spells playable from the graveyard, making spells that allow the player to put other spells in hand (so they can cast what they need to, instead of what their deck gives them), even dual cards where the player decides at casting which spell of the two to cast.

We need more skills with versatility. Hexes are just one of those gimmicks that a diversified (read, balanced) build should be able to deal with, but because there are not enough diverse skills in the realm of hex removal, this area goes untapped.

assassin of the god · May 27, 2007, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Let me put it this way:

If you buff non-elite hex removal to deal with hex teams, you have to buff multiple-removal skills, as single-removals will never be good enough to deal with hex teams.Sure the best of monks can time their single removals to catch some key hexes, but still it is not very useful.Likewise, multiple hex removals will rarely do better than single hex removals against teams without long duration hexes with covers. So basicly if you buff hex removal in any way, it will only be useful against hex teams. YAY BUILDWARS!

What would be a much better option if rapidly decreasing duration/recharge on the 9914120941904 anti-melee hexes that last an hour and a half so a necro can't just put a hex with a cover on a war and forget about it forever. This would increase both the skill and energy required for hex spammers. Also, increasing cast times/ making hexes more prone to interupts(an universal counter) would be nice.

Edit: Mylon's post sums the larger problem better

Mylon · May 27, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by assassin of the god

What would be a much better option if rapidly decreasing duration/recharge on the 9914120941904 anti-melee hexes that last an hour and a half so a necro can't just put a hex with a cover on a war and forget about it forever. This would increase both the skill and energy required for hex spammers. Also, increasing cast times/ making hexes more prone to interupts(an universal counter) would be nice.

I would like to draw your attention to the mesmer class. The mesmer class operates as a shutdown class on a very active level. That is, generally they try and nullify one person on the enemy team. Unfortunately, due to power inflation all around and nerfing of the mesmer, it's of my assessment that they no longer quite serve their purpose. With fast cast spells like SoR (to ignore Migrane and other casting slowdowns), energy hiding sets to ignore E denial, and the general fact that mesmers practically have to be on the front line to get their spells off, they really don't contribute enough to the game. They can at best partially shut a person down, which turns an 8 vs 8 game into a 7.25 vs 7 game.

If necros are changed to be more active, they might very well suffer the fate of mesmers. Spreading hexes is about the only thing that makes necros viable at the moment. The trick, however, is that some hexes are much more threatening than others. With use of good cover hexes, the important hexes can stay on and it's not very feasible to remove them.

I do not think that durations should be nerfed, but I do thing that the hexes need to be made less of a threat. Faintheartedness, for example, perhaps could only be 25% slower instead of 50% slower. As it stands, faintheartededness cripples a physical class and can cripple more than one player, and it's not even elite. Insidious parasite lets me, when I play a necro, literally ignore assassins and warriors (but curiously enough, not dervishes). I'd dare say even buff the typical cover hexes as a counterpoint so they might see use on their own right instead of something chaff for other hexes. Or, perhaps, so hexway would still be viable (without being overpowered or overnerfed) because the cover hexes would make up for some of the power loss of other hexes.

Shendaar · May 28, 2007, 08:25 PM // 20:25

I think the skill that really needs to be "nerfed" is Faintheartedness. I think it is way too good for its recharge, cost and especially its duration. 50% slower attack speed significantly reduce the dps of any physical attacker and on top of that it adds pressure with degen.

Div · May 29, 2007, 05:03 AM // 05:03

We'll see if they decide to balance it sometime before the next monthly tournament...

Surena · May 29, 2007, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shendaar

I think the skill that really needs to be "nerfed" is Faintheartedness. I think it is way too good for its recharge, cost and especially its duration. 50% slower attack speed significantly reduce the dps of any physical attacker and on top of that it adds pressure with degen.

The duration is too long and the cast time too short. Don't forget Reaper's Mark, the cream on the top.

Thom Bangalter · May 30, 2007, 07:18 PM // 19:18

skill balance is coming late junish supposedly, so don't hold your breath as you still have another month of this game being a nightmare when playing on ladder.

Seamus Finn · May 30, 2007, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Lately, the more I've been playing against hexes the less I've veiwed them as an "overpowered" build. Individual hexes seem way too good for their cost/cast etc(fainthartedness is a fair example), but when combined, basically come down to degenning and humiliting your lod in order to wipe you and win or get a fairly large advantage for VoD. I haven't seen a hex build that really strays from this archetype. Since the terms of victory are so narrow, it isn't THAT hard to beat as long as you don't clutter your build with hex removal. Either way though, it makes for a boring match.

My main problem with hexes are how easy they are to use. I would think this has caused a lot of frustration across the whole ladder.

Shendaar · May 31, 2007, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

skill balance is coming late junish supposedly, so don't hold your breath as you still have another month of this game being a nightmare when playing on ladder.

It better not take this long. I don't pretend to be an expert in skill balance, but there is no way that even one guy working alone could take this long to come up with the kind of skill balance we have been seeing lately.

LifeInfusion · May 31, 2007, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Non-elite hex removal needs a buff more than hexes need a nerf, IMO.

I totally agree. Most of the options for hex removal are elite.
5 recharge: Divert Hexes [e]; Blessed light[e]; withdraw Hexes[e] (total crap); signet of removal
7 recharge: remove hex (2 cast)
8 recharge: Expel Hexes[e]
10 recharge: reverse Hex; shatter Hex; Hex Eater Vortex[e]; empathic removal[e]; Contemplation of Purity (conditional)
12 recharge: Holy Veil, Deny Hexes; smite hex
20 recharge: Convert Hexes; Purge Signet (2 cast); Inspired/Revealed Hex;
45 recharge: Hex eater signet (touch range)

FoxBat · Jun 01, 2007, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

skill balance is coming late junish supposedly

/ragequit